Field of 43:
Allegheny Mountain- PSU-Behrend
ASW-UT Tyler
Capiatal–UMW
Centennial JHU
CUNY–Baruch
Colonial–Marywood
Commonwealth Coast–Nichols
Commonwealth–Elizabethtown
Empire 8–Stevens
Freedom–Wilkes
Heartland–Earlham
IIAC–Luther
Landmark–Drew
Little East–UMass-Dartmouth
MIAA–Zoo
Midwest-Grinnell
MIAC–GAC
NESCAC-Amherst
N Atlantic–PSU-Harrisburg
Northern–Concordia(WI)
Northwest-Whitman
NCAC–Kenyon
OAC-Ohio Northern
Old Dominion-W & L
Presidents–Grove City
Skyline–NYU-Poly
SCIAC–CMS
Southern–Trinity
USA South–NCW
UAA–Emory
B: Santa Cruz, MIT, Skidmore, Whitewater, Vassar, TCNJ
C: Williams, Bowdoin, Cal Lutheran, Middlebury, Pomona-Pitzer, Wash U, Redlands
Scenario 1:
1. Amherst*, Skidmore, Mary Washington, Baruch, Marywood, NYU-Poly
2. Emory, Gustavus*, Luther, Grinnell, Concordia
3. Williams, NC Wesleyan, TCNJ*, Drew, Stevens, PSU-Harrisburg
4. Kenyon*, Washington & Lee, Whitewater, Ohio Northern, Grove City, PSU-Behrend
5. CMS*, Santa Cruz, Cal Lutheran, Pomona-Pitzer, Redlands
6. Bowdoin*, Middlebury, MIT, UMass Dartmouth, Nichols
7. Whitman, Wash U*, Kalamazoo, UT-Tyler, Earlham
8. Trinity (TX), Johns Hopkins*, Vassar, Wilkes, Elizabethtown
Scenario 2 and Scenario 3 coming Tuesday. Need to think a little bit. What’s the opinion of everyone on the 7 and 8 overall seeds? I figure Whitman, Midd and Trinity TX are in contention for those spots.
If Case or Carnegie get in, they would go to Kenyon. That may push the committee to make a judgement for one of them.
The main problem is if you allow Trinity to go ahead of Middlebury (which should happen). Gustavus pretty much has to host a region because of the other conference champions and Pool B teams that are up there (the NCAA doesn’t want to pay to fly them elsewhere, and no other region is close enough). That means you pretty much have to fly a 1-seed up there. If Trinity is a 2-seed, you can fly both Whitman and Trinity there and have a solid region, neither team gets an easy path to the Elite Eight because neither team really deserves it. If Trinity becomes a 1-seed, however, you can’t put them and Whitman in the same place.
I think d3tennis’ idea is to reward Emory with a weak region for their undefeated season. I don’t think it’s fair, however, for Wash U to get to host a region with Whitman as a 1-seed. Wash U hasn’t done anything this year, and that’s like giving them a ticket to the Elite Eight. I think it would be much more fair to put Wash U as the 2-seed in Kenyon’s region (which is ridiculously weak as it is), make Washington & Lee go to Emory, allow Emory to host by flying UT-Tyler to them. Now, here’s the crazy idea: the California region has always been supplemented by either Whitman or Tyler to make it a 4-team region because they’ve only ever had 3 teams make it. This year, they look to have 5 teams make it. Why not do this:
1. Amherst*, Skidmore, Baruch, Marywood, PSU-Behrend (493 miles), (NYU-Poly)
2. Emory*, Washington & Lee, Mary Washington, UT-Tyler
3. Williams, NC Wesleyan, TCNJ*, Drew, Stevens, PSU-Harrisburg, Grove City (exactly 500 miles)
4. Kenyon*, Wash U, Whitewater, Kalamazoo, Ohio Northern, Earlham
5. CMS*, UC Santa Cruz or Cal Lutheran, Pomona-Pitzer, Redlands
6. Bowdoin*, Middlebury, MIT, UMass Dartmouth, Nichols, (NYU-Poly)
7. UC Santa Cruz or Cal Lutheran, Whitman or Trinity (TX), Gustavus*, Luther, Grinnel, Concordia
8. Trinity (TX) or Whitman, Johns Hopkins*, Vassar, Wilkes, Elizabethtown
Something like that would give the very unique opportunity for two California teams to make the Elite Eight in this very unique year. You would also still be flying 3 teams. You would still have to argue whether to have Whitman or Cruz/Cal Lu as the #1 seed in the Gustavus region, but there’s some food for thought.
The problem with both of our scenarios is that we both have an “unneccessary” flight involved. Me with Emory, you with Cruz/Cal Lu. While this is an ideal situation for balanced regions, it’s not a realistic scenario for an actual bracket because the NCAA cares more about saving money than attaining fair regionals. I’m glad, however, that you see the issue when Trinity (TX) becomes the 8th #1 seed (which I also believe they should get over Midd).
Maybe if we both keep trying, we’ll coming up with something good and realistic.
Before our conference tournament I got an Email saying that Goldstein was not on the team anymore for violation of team rules or something. Hu is injured, something to do with his back. He might be ready for NCAA’s but I doubt it.
Emory will need a 4th team that can travel there. Right now I think only UMW, W&L, and NCW can travel to Emory. They need another team to be able to drive. Also, what happened to Hu and Goldstein?
You know, I still think it is ridiculous that NCWC is ranked so low after only losing 2 very close matches to 2 good teams. They barely lost to CMU after getting swept in doubs and lost a tight match with Hopkins with 3 3 set matches. They beat Kenyon at their home courts and somehow they are still ranked 4. They also have solid wins against Case and Mary Wash. I was their assistant the last few years and I am now the head coach at E&H college and I know these guys very well, so I know they have the talent to play with anyone in the country. Honestly the rankings have always been terrible and should be done by computers instead of by Browning and others. Anyways, looking forward to the tournament to see if Amherst can turn it on again in May like they have done the past several years. I’d really like to see Hopkins finally break through and make the elite 8 and not have a meltdown again this year. W&L will most likely not be a huge threat losing Goldstein and Hu before the NCAA. They are def strong at the top but don’t have the depth to beat top 10 teams. Once again I feel sorry for the California teams bc only one will have a shot at the elite 8 but it is what it is. Also quick question, why wouldn’t Emory host? Didn’t they travel last year to W&L bc it was the women’s turn to host. I thought they rotated every year. D
A few things. First, computer rankings are more complicated than one might think and there are many factors that go into it. That being said, it takes a very long time to incorporate something like that, but it may happen at some point in the future. But, then we would all have the computers to blame when things didn’t line up the way they felt. NCW is very good, as are so many teams. NCW has beaten Chicago, Kenyon, Case, and Carnegie. Good wins, but 2 of their 4 ranked wins came in Feb. Which win would put them higher? The win over Kenyon is great, but Kenyon has a by far better resume. Mary Wash isn’t that good of a win, and Case just beat Carnegie. They’re at a very respectable place considering their overall body of work. It’s easy to blame people, but in reality it looks different depending on the angle you’re looking at it from, and since the committee isn’t just looking at where one team should be, but where everything fits together, that makes the situation infinitely more complicated. Aside from that, the ITA nat. rankings have no bearing on NCAA selection.
I understand all that but moving a team from #5 in country to #18 after losing a match 5-4 at someone elses home court is a bit ridiculous and you know it. I don’t care who that team is. And completely dismissing every match that happend in February or early March is also crazy. Also I am not saying that Browning messes everything up, all I am saying is that there should be an unbiased source doing the rankings.
Depending on how you evaluate the rankings during each period it does make sense. Other teams had similar drops or rises. Looking at their overall body of work at that point might have merited them being at that spot at one point, and another during the next ranking period.
Secondly, there is no way not to be biased. Everyone is. Even a computer system will automatically have bias built into it. If you already have an opinion about something, you are more likely to see things that fit that perspective.
Well it is easy to put opinions up here using anonymous but it is what it is. I really don’t care who knows it is me saying how I feel about certain issues. I will also say that the individual rankings are usually worse than the team rankings. If you don’t agree I don’t really care bc for all I know you are an emory player taking up for their coach. I have nothing against Browning and respect everything he has done so I am not bashing him if that’s what you think. Anyways, as I said before, I am looking forward to see who steps up and pulls an upset this year. I would like to see an emory-gustavus rematch to see if the first match was a fluke or not. Trinity and hopkins would also be a match I’d like to see. Hopkins def has the talent to beat anyone in the country but can they break through and finally win the big match when it matters. Williams-NCWC has the potential to be an amazing match if both teams show up and play well. I feel that it would probably come down to doubles. D
I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn’t attacking your point of view. I was merely saying that there are so many ways of looking at rankings depending upon your point of view, and many are valid. There isn’t always an objectively right way of looking at something, especially rankings.
Basically all I am saying is that no coach who has anything to gain by the rankings should have nothing to do with the rankings. period
Two ways of responding: A) No coach has anything to gain with rankings, as ITA rankings aren’t connected to NCAA selection. B) What coach has nothing to gain? Who should do the rankings? Coaches with nothing to gain from rankings wouldn’t necessarily do a better job. So many coaches are not full time, and the ITA relies on coaches help.
In seeing how you went about structuring the regions, I think it would be helpful to your readers if you could give a short Cliff’s notes explanation of what the official and unofficial rules are in doing that, including the 500 mile rule, if there is still one, and how you determined who is hosting. That way people could understand how you came up with the brackets that you did. Right now I don’t understand it at all, and I’ve been around D3 tennis for two years. The only thing I think I understand is that the #1 seeds in each region should, overall, correspond with the national rankings. After that, I’m completely lost and I’m sure most of your readers are as well.
Do you know if Hopkins put in a bid to host? Sometimes they don’t
I know this has been addressed already, but just to clarify, there are definitely 7 Pool C bids this year. Below is the link to the Pre-Championship Handbook…
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/myconnect/2dec1b004ad8c33d8808ddd0ae33e5ab/PreChamps_Book_Tennis.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=2dec1b004ad8c33d8808ddd0ae33e5ab
(Page 79/80)
Are you positive that it is 7 Pool C bids? They will not fly Emory. They don’t have to fly, so they won’t.
Williams can host and get almost the same schools in that regional.
Kalamazoo to Kenyon and Wisc. W-W to Wash U
Agree Emory may not fly but if you sit down and try to do this with Trinity rather than Midd as the 8th overall seed, it gets very tricky and someone (probably Bowdoin) ends up with an absurdly easy region. I tried to avoid that. I’m going to attempt to restructure this evening.
Why not switch Kenyon and Emory? Didn’t Emory travel to W&L last year?
To reiterate the above point, Kalamazoo went to Kenyon and Wisc.-WW went to Wash U last year. Nearly the same teams were there as well.
I think that I can do this with one less flight, meaning Emory. Just have to figure out how.